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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys,

I saw this over on the picture thread and didn't wanna pollute a picture sticky with an off-topic reply.


Originally Posted by Kyle E. Coyote
I sure wish Baer hadn't dropped out of the FBI trials like he did after they rejected his Premier II's Bo-Mar sights. :hairpull: Maybe if he'd have stayed the course we'd be seeing a gun like this as a standard option in the catalog.
Kyle, et al,

There was a whole lot more to the FBI submissions. The gun was actually the brainchild of Matt Gish, who was working with Les at the time. The original HRT submission gun was a double stacker, built on a Para gunsmith frame and a PII upper with MCM sights. The problems were:

1) Les didn't want to send assembled guns off for Black-T as was required by the commission. He (as he still does) wanted to send parts and reassemble and refit them after being treated. The FBI wanted the guns to go from manufacturer, to Black-T, to them.

2) Les did not want to do free service and warranty work in perpetuity. The way the contract was written, FBI armorers would have the ability to compel Baer to provide service, or parts on demand.

3) There were accusations of back room dealing on the part of SA.

Gish left and struck out on his own. He is back on the radar and is cranking out spectacular work over at Professional Gunsmithing. The HRT guns were sold to the public. They were advertised as having Black-T, but were, infact, Bear Coat (Teflon S) from Rocky Mtn Arms in CO. Baer was forced to remove Black-T from the catalog. Once the stock of Para frames ran out, the gun became a single stacker and was (re)named, Swift Response Pistol. Only a few of the originals bore that designation on the slide. None of the submission guns, five in all, had the markings.

By the late 90's, the gun had fallen into myth and legend, resurfacing as the IPSC gun of choice, for those lucky enough to find one. Years after the originals were gone, the apprentice of Jaime del Valle, by the name of Ray Parga, built a replica of the original. It has since become known as, "The Parga" (due to the fact that he stamped his last name on the frame), whereabouts unknown. Ray's version used as many original parts as he could assemble and touted fine, hand checkering. Ray was kind enough to send me this pic:



Ray has since purchased the shop from Jaime, who has retired, aswell as the name, del Valle Gunsmithing. He will still build the gun upon request.

Matt Gish, offers his own FBI spec pistol, based on a Colt's 1991A1 platform, featuring Black-T. He also does a Para build, with Bo-Mars, calling it the Limited. It's primarily a race gun. When last I heard, Matt was willing to build the gun again, upon commission.

Hope this helps.
 

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Great info Ping and that is a good looking gun
 
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Wow, that's a great story, thanks Ping!

I heard rumors about the possibility of a new gun being adopted, something about problems with the Pro. Heard anything about this? Steve Nastoff has been called in to correct problems with nonworking Professionals, but there has been talk about the FBI cancelling the contract when it comes up for renewal in May of 2008. The FBI trials round 2.... that would be interesting.
 

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Old Sheepdog
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Other than having probs with my early SA's and thus becoming a Colt guy, I wanted a Pro for a while, but the "want" went away and now I have an itch for an AR now.

How many Pro's were actually delivered in the contract? Tracy
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Sorry guys, but Ima Baer Head. My only interest in the FBI trials was getting to the bottom of the dropped balls on Les' part and ultimate fiasco it became. It started with my interest in the double stack guns. Another issue was that they had lots of problems with the mags at the time.

The downside of the SA gun is that, at the end of the day, you still have IMBEL steel and questionable QA prior to hitting the SA Custom Shop. IMO, the consumer price tag is not justified.

FBI wont actually "cancel" the contract, but, as you say, rather not renew it.

Treasury (USSS), has long been addicted to the Sig. Army is adopting the new HK. It's anyone's guess what FBI will jump on.

All these contracts are now only about $$$ and passing the frisbee/drop test. Once past the test, it's all about what's cheapest. You can bet it wont be another 1911.
 
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Isn't it somewhere around 2,000 per year with somewhere around 8-10% going to civillians?

Honestly, I have a few irks with the Pros. The FBI agents they're assigned to should be getting the BEST OUT THERE. The Pro is chalk full of MIM, and from what I've seen SA can't even keep them all up to spec. Half of them have a barrel that's so long the Pro looks more like a Beretta 92 from the side. And I don't see ANY reason that the only ammo the gun had to qualify with was Golden Sabre. It's a MIRACLE that any gun managed to wring any sort of accuracy out of that ammo.

If you want to refute this, fine, but I want you to post a pic of yourself looking me in the eye, with a straight face, as you tell me that the HRT wouldn't be better served with an SRP from Baer or a CQB Elite from Wilson.

Sadly, I bet Ping's right, though, it's not going to be another 1911.
 

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I've had good luck with the accuracy of Golden Saber..

And i have been taken to task a few times for saying that a gun over 1400$ should not have mim or come out of the custom shop with mim ..
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
And i have been taken to task a few times for saying that a gun over 1400$ should not have mim or come out of the custom shop with mim ..
I'll happily take you to task over this, Bud.

Why don't you say it more often!?! :rolleyes:
 

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From what I remember, the new specs for the 45 would eliminate the possibility of a 1911 design in several ways. I think that the closest thing out there right now is the Taurus OSS 24/7 I think.
 

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From what I remember, the new specs for the 45 would eliminate the possibility of a 1911 design in several ways. I think that the closest thing out there right now is the Taurus OSS 24/7 I think.
There are a number of them Brian. H&K, Sig, etc., even Glock entered one they added a thumb safety to.


Specifications
3.4.1. Action: The JCP shall function in double action/single action (DA/SA) or double-action only (DAO) including Striker-Fired Action (SFA) (T). The JCP should have a modular action mechanism that allows reconfiguration at the unit level without modification to the weapon’s major assemblies (O).

http://fs2.fbo.gov/EPSData/ODA/Synopses/27191/H92222-05-R-0017/Attch01JCPspec080905.doc
 

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Ya I knew there were some others, but I think the OSS was Taurus' offering just for the JCP. I think they read the specs and built the gun to them.
I believe the others had to be modified, or were lucky enough to fit the bill.
 

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I've had good luck with the accuracy of Golden Saber..

And i have been taken to task a few times for saying that a gun over 1400$ should not have mim or come out of the custom shop with mim ..
I agree with that 100%.
 

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There's something so ungainly about the current crop of new pistols from most makers. The XD, seems to work well, but I find it too bulky. The H&Ks are also too bulky for my tastes. In contrast, the H&K P7 series is wonderfully compact. And of course, there's the elegant 1911.
 

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But........ I think I'll just stick with ol' slabsides.
Are you guys sure we shouldn't wait to form our opinions until the 1911 has been battletested in every climate on our planet and every form of combat carry that our GI's and LEO's can encounter just to make sure the format is reliable, accurate and that the .45 is a real manstopper?:thinking:


Oh yeah.:rolleyes: What was I thinking.:shades:



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